Hi,all,yes,the many acts of cruelty are just expressions of ignorance, I call it...or as you say, unconconsciousness. And I am starting to get that when we are unconsious or in an ignorant state of mind...that we truly do not know any other way...or higher or enlightened way...because it is the very nature of the ignorance to not allow us to see out of it,to completely keep us caught in it and not to see out of it..beyond it...and so...to condemn or really hate someone for their cruel acts towards us or towards others...is really not just or kind or fair...you almost cannot hold them accountable for theri actions, not matter how cruel, becasue they truly did not know any other way...they were completely enshrouded with unconsciousness of what they were doing,were so completely caught in that, that no other option came to theri mind or would. Or maybe even could. And I can relate to that from my own experiences of ignorance or unconsciousness when I am totally caught and know of no other way. Father,forgive them, they do not know what they do...really says it completely....yet how do you really live with this...completely? 
 
I am not there yet where I can forgive such heinous acts of cruelty inflicted on me...yes, I am grateful I have come into this incarnation with more awareness or consciousness than many others, especially those who have been cruel to me, and like now in my life, the emotional pain I am feeling is so great and the obscuration of how to act wisely is so strong...and i have lost a lot of consciousness compared to a year ago , I do understand what ignorance is like and how difficult it really is to see clearly and act wisely...even though I am feeling nothing as strong as what cruel people like my father felt when he was cruel to me...I can't even fathom what he felt that was so unbearable that he had to repress his pain and not feel it. Maybe that is why I am going through this expereicne in my life now...to really experience what ignorance feels like and the strong emotional pain my fahter and othres who do cruel acts towards othrs and me felt like. Yes, and that is a helpful perspective to me as is the passage above that says and confirms my own point of view about ignorance and unconsciousness. And I am grateful for that passage. At least I know I am on the right path. I do know intellectually what is being said here and above is true..and I am learning from experience and insight that it is true. And perhaps I need to stop discounting that...and stop saying, well, that is only a concept or a preliminary learning through thought...and the spiritual traditions disount thought... I had one really almost enlightened spiritual Buddhist teacher discount my conceptual understanding of some Buddhist teaching becasue it was only conceptual and hadn't reached the experiential stage... really it is time to let go of that hurtful experience and listen to myself, who says...intellectual or conceptual understanding is a good start and is the first step....it will take me further and deeper and do not disount it; teachings and study are helpful and can lead at the way...although many disagree with this....and I don't disagree...I find it helpful and a good beginning and a good place to start, and the mind can be a tool and a helpful one even in spiritual practices that discount it and say to ignore it. And I find it helpful, and to discount it,harmful. And even thoughts have energy and one must use whatever works,no matter what anyone says. And really I have experienced myself that a clear heart leads to a clear mind and vice versa and that the two go hand and hand and that the aim is not to discard the mind and what it has to teach me, but to use it as a tool, and to have the mind and heart become synchronous is the goal. Thinking is not a bad thing to be discarded, I have found in my experience, but maybe,as I have heard by some traditons, to become a servant of the divine and not remain its master. I am learning that I need to embrace my mind and to include it in all of my experience...it is part of me like other parts...and for me, it does not work anymore to hate it and try to get rid of it. But to see what it has to offer me and integrate it with the rest of me. And, what of people who have different strengths, like people who are naturally more philosophical or endowed with great intellect..like Einstein? Are they any less equipped for enlightenmnet than the more heart centered of us? What would've happened if some spiritual teacher had come along and told Einstein to disregard what his mind came up with? We would all be in the soup! 
 
Who invented the light bulb, I can't remember..was it Einstein? I don't know..not up on basic science anymore..maybe it was Edison! ha! What about disciplines like raja yoga...and other more mind oriented approaches to enlightenment..are they all wrong and not worthy roads to it? I don't know enough to judge or say...I am not a scholar. But just me and based on my own experience through life...any approach can get you where you need to go..all paths are one...and i am tired of the debating and the sqawking I have heard so much about this...and I am just giong to listen to myself and my own intutive wisdom and let everybody else decide for themselves and not worry about it one minute more. So today I am grateful for this passage, for the insight that I need to drop my discouting that my beginning to shift my mental attitude is not helpful because this process is a mental one and not eperiential, and just listen to my intutive wisdom that says...it is good and fine that you think in a more positive way, to value what i have learned about ignorance, even if it is coming through from the mind or intellect, and that this is a valuable starting point to me to help me shift to a more forgiving way of being and healing. To discount it, in fact, blocks my healing. And healing and learning can come from many sources...who am I to say what works for you is not valuable and the way for you, not matter what tradition you follow. I can only speak for me...and to me, this is what being open minded means and is truly spiritual and skillful. And that is enough for me. Now I am getting foggy and need to end. Thank you, Ken. I wonder if I have it within me to be forgiving to the extent that i need to for the cruelty of others towards me and others, too...it seems to be a daunting task...but comparison with other people and what they have in their lives, and what I have to learn, doesn't serve me anymore...and so I'll just say, 
 
"trauma" or "igorance" or "unconsciusness" and leave it at that...when I am in a painful emotion..and not go into the condemnation of that and the people doing it...as hard as that is and as almost counterintuitive or strange as that seems or sounds.Doesn't it seem "right" somehow to condemn people for theri cruelty and behaviour from others even though it is from ignorance? Doesn't it seem immoral to do that somehow? Yes, I guess a deeper societal conditioning kicks in that is based on the Judeo Christian ethic that so shapes our societal way of thinking we have all been brought up with. Perhaps a Japanese or Chinese or Hindu person would not have the same trouble or conditioning in theri thinking. And so would not have this thought arise in theri minds. And we are dealign wtih an unwestern appraoch here to my very western mind/psyche. So thank you again, the support helped and the clarity did, too. Take care,all, and may someone perhaps benefit from what I have said here and I wish you all a happy day and journey today...plesae forgive me if I have said something unwise or unclear...I hope you all would be wise enough to pick that up and not be led astray by my ...ignorance! HA!...Love,Sharon

While I do not think that people should spend their lives in prisons of guilt nor allow it to fester long after the dust has settled and leassons have been learned but . . . I think that it is a bit dangerous to write off guilt and conscience as simply the "unconscious" and, therefore, entirely excusable and dismissable from legitimacy.  
 
 
 
Biology has not left us with many (if any) useless emotional componants. Like a burn reminds us that fire is hot and not to touch it, perhaps guilt is there to course correct as well. Granted, there are extremes to go to for every set of parameters but we must be careful not to write free passes to ourselves to conduct ourselves in any which way with out the legitimized effect of remorse. That would be a perilous and slippery slope. An extreme example: Were the Nazi's simply acting out their unconscious minds? Should guilt for those executioners never have been granted entry into their minds? 
 
 
 
Perhaps, we've grown to be such a non mea culpa society that we've come to view our consciences as a "drag" or a monkey on our backs instead of a tool or emotional sense.  
 
 
 
Like everything, I believe that wisdom lies in balance not in the extremes. I welcome and employ the use of every emotion and attempt to keep each at bay and in balance. It is a difficult challenge for me but one that I take humility in. Guilt can keep an ego in check, humble us, teach us, remind us of our humanity and fragility. To deny ourselves of our course correcting abilities when we find them unfavorable seems like a rookie mistake. Perhaps, people just want to hear that. Everyone wants an easy ticket. Sorry to disagree. I'll take the long road and the high road and face myself throughout life. Thank you for reading a different take. Be good to eachother. It's important!